A veteran of ‘The Ultimate Fighter,’ in the future, Abe Wagner will be looking to work his way back to the Octagon.
A professional mixed martial artist since mid-2006, Wagner established a 6-2 record before being invited to compete on ‘The Ultimate Fighter: Heavyweights’ in 2010.
Unfortunately for the man they call “The Hurricane,” Wagner lost to current UFC contender Jon Madsen in the preliminary round of the competition and was subsequently eliminated from the tournament.
Since his time on the show, Wagner has won a pair of bouts—including a 32-second TKO victory over former UFC champion Tim Sylvia—and dropped a pair of contests—including his most recent match; a second-round submission loss at the hands of Aaron Rosa in late-March.
Currently, in what can fairly be described as a grudge match, Wagner is slated to take on Justin Grizzard on July 23 under the Victory Fighting Championships banner.
I recently had the opportunity to speak with Abe Wagner about his early days in the sport, his time in the ‘TUF house,’ and his upcoming match.
What inspired you to try your hand at mixed martial arts?
I don’t know. I guess I used to get in a lot of fights when I was growing up, and I always thought that I was pretty good at it. I played football in college and after my football career was over, I took up mixed martial arts, because it was a good meshing between my younger days and still being a big guy with a competitive itch.
What were your first impressions of the sport?
I think, up until the first time that I saw it, I thought that people fighting was just people throwing hay-makers—I guess I watched too many tough-man competitions [laughs]. The first MMA fight that I saw, the one guy came out and threw a big hay-maker and then the guy he was fighting ducked under it, took him down, and choked him out; I thought, “Wow. I know very little about fighting.” It was kind of humbling at that point for me.
When did you start training?
I started in June of 2005.
Did you ever think that you would be able to turn your passion into a career?
When I first started—I think it’s typical of most people; you set small goals and then set more as you achieve your smaller goals. I didn’t want to be a 50- or a 60-year-old guy, talking about how I could’ve done that when I was younger. I just wanted to do it and see how it went.
Were you passionate about the sport right from the start?
Yeah. I remember when ‘The Ultimate Fighter’ first came on—and it was on late at night; not on primetime—and I wouldn’t be able to fall asleep for two or three hours after that, because I was so excited just from watching that one fight. Obviously, as you get more experienced, you start to get a little more desensitized to it, but I was very excited about the sport from the first time that I saw it.
Is having ‘The Ultimate Fighter’ as your first impression of the sport what inspired you to try out for the show?
Well, I was just trying to make the best career move possible when I was trying out for the show. It was definitely a surreal experience; having watched my first MMA fight on ‘The Ultimate Fighter’ four years earlier and then being on ‘The Ultimate Fighter.’
Did you ever think that you would make it onto the show?
No. When I first started fighting, it never occurred to me that I would.
Realistically, when you tried out, did you think that you would make it through?
I thought there was a good chance, but it was more of a shot in the dark.
What was going through your mind during the tryouts?
Actually, I didn’t physically go to the tryouts; I made an audition DVD and just sent in that. After that, they brought me out for the second round of casting.
What was going through your mind on the trip out to Vegas?
I knew that it could be a life-changing experience if I did well and, if I did poorly, I realized that it would probably set me back in my career—and I was right [laughs]. I was very aware of how momentous a moment it was.
How do you feel about your performance on the show?
I was disappointed, because I think—stylistically—I got the worst match-up that I could’ve gotten. I didn’t really have an opportunity to showcase any of my skills. I wouldn’t have been as disappointed had I had a fight where I performed well—but I didn’t do much in my fight.
Do you think, had you been selected to Team Rashad, your experience would’ve been any different?
Yeah—I think that’s pretty fair to say.
What were your initial thoughts when you were selected by Quinton?
In retrospect, it probably would’ve been better for me to be on the other team—from a coaching standpoint—but at the time of the actual selection, I was just happy that I was selected as one of the first guys; that gave me a little bit of confidence.
How would you describe Quinton as a coach?
He’ll be the first one to tell you this; he’s not a very good coach. He brings other guys who are coaches. He’s a great guy and he’s a super-awesome guy to hang out with, but as far as coaching-decision and whatnot, he’ll be the first one to tell you that that’s why he brought coaches with him.
Do you think, had you been selected to Team Rashad, your experience would’ve been more beneficial?
I think both coaching staffs have a wealth of information, but I think Rashad’s coaching staff definitely had a better strategy for the format of the show.
How so?
Well, I think when Team Rashad was picking match-ups, they picked match-ups that would be best for their guys. It’s pretty well documented that Greg Jackson is the mad-scientist of MMA [laughs], so he ended up picking winners in all but one of the matches he picked.
In contrast, “Rampage” picked the first two match-ups—and we lost both of them. “Rampage” went 0-2 while Team Rashad went 5-1 with their picks—I think that’s a pretty good delineation.
Did you have any say in who you’d be fighting?
I had indicated that I didn’t think that it would be a very good match-up; on account of his strong wrestling skills and my weaker skills as a wrestler, but “Rampage” said that he wasn’t too concerned about that. At some point, I just had to suck it up and say, “Well, you’ve got to trust your coaches at some point.”
Did you trust the coaches on the show?
Not to the same level that I would with the same coaches that I’ve been working with every day for the last five years, but at some point, you have to trust that they’re there for your benefit.
Was there anything that surprised you during your time on the show?
Fighting in a gym with 20 people and a ton of cameras is a weird experience [laughs]. It’s weird from that standpoint and it’s weird that fights took place throughout the day—as opposed to in the evening.
Were you aware of Kimbo before the show?
Nope.
You didn’t know who he was?
No—I knew who he was; I just didn’t know that he was going to be on the show.
What was going through your mind when you found out that he would be on your season?
I don’t know; I guess I didn’t really have too many thoughts—one way or the other—on it. I wouldn’t say that I was excited or anything; he was just another guy there.
Do you feel that there are any misconceptions of Kimbo?
I think the misconceptions of Kimbo are probably the same misconceptions of most fighters—only to a caricature scale. I think they probably think the same thing about most fighters—only on a bigger scale.
Was there anything that surprised you about Kimbo during your experience with him?
No. He’s a pretty normal guy. I don’t know if I had any expectations to be surprised against; he’s just a normal guy.
Was there anyone that left a particularly lasting impression on you during your time on the show?
Scott Junk and I became pretty good friends. Aside from that, I don’t know; there were a lot of boring days.
Was that ever overwhelming?
It’s like intellectual sensory deprivation for six weeks; you don’t do anything except train, eat, sleep, and stare at the wall. There is no correspondence, there’s no TV, there’s no music or reading materials of any kind. Everybody gets a little stir-crazy.
Do you feel that you were prepared for that environment?
As much as anyone can be. I don’t know how one would go about preparing for that—other than doing those shitty things in your real life, but why would you ever do that on purpose [laughs]?
Good point. Would you do anything differently if you had the opportunity?
If I had to do it again, I think that I would be a little more vocal about the match-up that was chosen for me, so that—win or lose—I could’ve shown more of my skills.
What did you take away from your experience on the show?
I learned a lot about the business aspect of the sport; at the end of the day, it’s an entertainment business—if you’re boring, then nobody is going to want to watch you fight. At the same time, if you have an average record but are a lot of fun to watch, then there will still be a spot for you in the business.
How do you feel about what you’ve been able to accomplish since leaving the show?
I feel pretty good about what I’ve been able to accomplish. I lost a fight to Travis Browne—who’s currently undefeated in the UFC—and then I knocked out Tim Sylvia—you might have heard of him. I kind of felt that the Sylvia fight was redemption for what happened on ‘The Ultimate Fighter’; because nobody thought I had any skills to speak of. I think I was a five-to-one underdog.
What did being such a big underdog mean to you?
To be honest, it wasn’t unexpected, so I wasn’t offended or pissed off. I wasn’t particularly motivated on that basis, but it definitely felt good to demonstrate what I’m capable of doing.
Did you feel, going into your bout, that you were capable of finishing Tim? Especially so quickly?
I knew I was capable, but I certainly didn’t picture it going that fast. I really thought that I was going to knock him out that night.
How did that feel?
It felt pretty awesome. I had a lot of joyful expletives to say right after, so I’m glad that they didn’t give me the microphone right away [laughs].
At the time of the first ‘Ultimate Fighter’, I think Tim would’ve been a champion in the UFC. When you started, did you ever think that you would have the opportunity to take on the then-UFC heavyweight champion?
No—yet another surreal moment for me. I believe he was the champion; it was at the time when him and Arlovski were going back and forth with the title. It was really weird to be in a fight with him, but it was definitely a highlight moment of my career.
How do you feel about your performance against Aaron Rosa?
I think it was a back-and-forth fight—he clipped me—and I wasn’t necessarily thinking the clearest of thoughts. I personally feel that I came out a bit flat that night—I’m sure that a lot of people would say that. I felt mentally ready, but I know that I didn’t fight up to my potential in that fight.
Aaron, after beating you, went straight to the UFC. What does that mean to you?
Well, it’s kind of frustrating. The last two people that have beaten me have went straight to the UFC right after, so I almost feel like I’m relegated to gatekeeper status. I know that I’m good enough to compete with those guys; I just need to get over that hump and break back into the UFC.
Do you feel that you belong in the UFC?
Yes—I do.
What do you feel is the next step in your career?
I think I’m going to win a couple fights here and get back into my winning ways.
Do you have any fights lined up right now?
I’m supposed to be fighting in Victory Fighting Championships in Iowa on July 23…his name is Justin Grizzard.
Do you know much about Justin?
Well, he’s from Omaha as well—and his record isn’t too spectacular—but he’s from a rival gym in Omaha. I’ve been wanting to fight this guy for a while, and I don’t know if fighting someone with a lesser-record does all that much for my career, but it’s more personal; I just want to fight the guy. It just worked out that way.
So you would say that this is more personal than professional?
Yeah.
Have you ever trained with him before?
I’ve sparred with two or three times about two years ago.
Do you think Justin poses any specific problems to you?
Honestly, I don’t see any way that he can beat me in a fight … I feel pretty confident; I feel pretty good about the fight.
What would a win mean to you?
Most directly, he likes to talk a lot of trash, so it would shut his mouth. In the bigger scheme of things, a win is obviously more momentum and it just brings me closer to that final goal.
Does the trash-talking ever get under your skin?
I try to keep everything professional—because it’s not personal—but Omaha is not that big of a place, so I sometimes just get sick of hearing people run their mouth. I’ll just be glad when I don’t have to hear it anymore.
Realistically, how far do you think you are from getting back in the Octagon?
I think that I’m two—maybe three—solid wins away. I think three wins over average opponents or two wins over good opponents.
What would fighting in the UFC mean to you?
It would be the fruition of a goal that I’ve pursued for six years now, so it would mean a lot to me to be able to compete at the highest level.
What are your goals in the sport at this point?
Most directly; it’s to fight in the UFC. It’s one fight at a time, but that’s the goal that I’m working towards.
When it’s all said and done, what would you be satisfied with in this sport?
Truthfully, I’d just like to be remembered as a great competitor. I don’t think my career will be deemed a success or not based on world championships—and I’m not saying that I’m ruling that out—but I would just like to be remembered as a great competitor. If my fighting spirit was remembered, then I’ll be satisfied with my career.
Where do you see yourself in five years?
I don’t know. I’ll probably be retired from the sport at that point; I’ll be pretty old. I think my MMA career will probably be done in four or five years.
Have you thought about that a lot?
I don’t have any kids right now—and not to take away from fighters that do—but don’t feel comfortable coming home with black eyes and bloody noses. I wouldn’t want them to see that on a regular basis.
When I’m 34, 35, it will probably be time for me to start settling down. Then I’ll move onto some other challenge; something else to do with my time.
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