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MMA Debut of 12-Year-Old Momo vs. Adult Draws Outrage Abroad, Support at Home

In the United States, the headlines hit mixed martial arts websites, message boards and social media like a coordinated strike against decency.
12-year-old set to fight 24-year-old adult in mixed martial arts debut.
It seemed, at first glance, un…

In the United States, the headlines hit mixed martial arts websites, message boards and social media like a coordinated strike against decency.

12-year-old set to fight 24-year-old adult in mixed martial arts debut.

It seemed, at first glance, unreal; literal #FakeNews. But it wasn’t—and isn’t. On May 20, 12-year-old Momo Shimizu will make her amateur debut against Momoko Yamazaki in Tokyo during a card promoted by Japanese organization Deep Jewels.

When it became clear the fight would actually happen, the second wave of reaction came: concern, outrage, repulsion.

Yet in Shimizu‘s home country, this story is barely registering a blip on the radar screen.

“What’s the reaction? There’s almost nothing,” Shu Hirata, a managing partner of On the Road Management and longtime foreign marketing operations manager for Deep, told Bleacher Report.

“It’s been done before here and fans are used to seeing kids doing kickboxing and beating adults. If anything, there’s more of an expectation that she’s the next big thing. So her coach [Sadanori Yamaguchi] actually appreciates the concern from the U.S. side, because nobody is too concerned in Japan.”

There, they see it as the inevitable destination of a life spent training in the martial arts.

Shimizu—who is most often referred to only as “Momo” in Japan—first started training at the age of three, telling Bleacher Report that she simply wanted to follow along with her older brother, Res, when he began karate lessons.

She quickly fell in love and has been training three hours a day, six days a week since kindergarten. While she’ll be making her amateur MMA debut, she’s had over 100 matches in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, kickboxing and karate combined, she estimates.

All of this sounds like ample preparation, but then again, she’s 12, having just started the seventh grade.

While Hirata acknowledges that concern is a normal reaction, he thinks it’s important for the sporting world to understand the amateur rules in place designed for safety.

The duo, who will compete at the 95-pound minimumweight limit (Momo is 4’11”), will wear protective head gear, shin guards and large gloves with extra padding to both blunt impact and create more difficulty in passing through a defensive guard. There will also be new elbow strikes allowed, and no striking at all on the ground. The fight itself will only consist of two three-minute rounds.

It will essentially be kickboxing in the standup and jiu-jitsu on the ground.

“Of course there’s always a danger as you can never say it’s 100 percent safe,” said Hirata, who has managed notables in his career including current UFC strawweight champion Joanna Jedrzejczyk. “But if we’re talking about the danger of brain concussion, in that sense, I personally think kids’ football, soccer, even playground activities could cause more danger of getting hit to the head.”

Dr. Shawn Klein, a lecturer of philosophy and sports ethicist at Arizona State University, said the pivotal issue is not Momo‘s age but her ability to offer consent. At 12, children are still developing emotionally, cognitively and physically, and they don’t fully understand the future consequences of their actions.

“I would think on average, it would be wrong for a 12-year-old to do this, but I think there can be exceptions if you have a 12-year-old who is exceptional across the board,” Klein said.

“If you have a young person who is capable of great maturity and forethought and advanced physical abilities in the ring, it seems like you would want to allow her to engage those capacities while making sure it’s safe.”

Momo‘s team says that is exactly the type of young lady they have on their hands, a savant in the training room who also draws top grades in the classroom.

She trains at Hakuhinkai Karate, a small but well-respected gym in Toyohashi that has only eight total students including three professional fighters: 19-year-old Naoki Inoue, who is 10-0 and recently signed with the UFC; 22-year-old Mizuki Inoue, who made her pro debut at 16 and holds a 12-4 record; and 18-year-old Yukari Yamaguchi, who is 1-0.

It is a gym that prizes defensive skill and head movement, and within it, Momo is considered a prodigy.

Meanwhile, while her opponent, Yamazaki, has five fights on her resume (she’s 2-3), Hirata said the bouts came as amateur ones in an organization that routinely squares off untrained people, and that Yamazaki is believed to have little experience or training aside from those bouts.

“I think Momo is going to smash Yamazaki,” Hirata said.

Yamazaki‘s motivations for competing against a child remain a mystery. Because they are amateurs, neither fighter is getting paid for the match, although it will air for a fee on Deep’s digital streaming service, DeepFightGlobal.com.

Amazingly, in Japan there is precedence both for this kind of fight and its expected result.

Yukari Yamaguchi was 13 at the time she made her amateur MMA debut in 2011, easily defeating 33-year-old Nana Ichikawa via armbar submission in just 80 seconds. Last year, also in Deep Jewels, 12-year-old Karen Date defeated 29-year-old Ayumi Misaka via hammerlock submission.

Such fights are possible in Japan because neither the country nor its prefectures have an athletic commission to regulate bouts, leaving promoters to pair off whoever they want. However, there is an unspoken agreement within the fight community prohibiting professional bouts with anyone younger than 15.

According to Hirata, Momo has been asking to compete in amateur MMA since she was 10, with her coach declining that request until now.

Hirata said people looking from the outside should understand how much thought and care went into the decision.

For the fight to take place, Momo‘s coach, parents and schoolteachers all had to give their full approval.

“That does help assuage some concern that we might have about whether she’s being taking advantage of, being exploited, that it’s not some sort of circus spectacle that is going to do some long-term damage to her development both as a fighter but more importantly as a person,” Klein said.

“So if she has good support around her and folks who are concerned with long-term interest as well, that’s helpful. That’s the biggest thing about 12-year-olds. Certainly, they can think through a lot of things. They can be bright and precocious but that long-term vision of life is not there.”

Momo confirms that when asked about her own future. She wants to continue fighting for Deep Jewels and thinks an eventual run at Invicta FC sounds good. The UFC? It’s too big and too far away to imagine right now.

The way she sees it, she’s just another seventh-grader doing something she loves to do. And in that, in her youthful insecurity, her age becomes her.

“I don’t have firm confidence to win this fight,” she said. “But I don’t think I would definitely lose or anything like that.”

Everyone around her says she’s ready. They believe in Momo, even if they understand the reaction that has poured out surrounding this unconventional matchup. To them, it’s understandable. To them, our reaction is fair, if misplaced. This young lady, they say, is someone exceptional, for which the regular rules may not apply.

“We appreciate the concern, because if you hear anyone say a 12-year-old is going to fight a 24-year-old, your natural reaction should be concern,” Hirata said. “But people have to see the ability of Momo. This might be one of the best prodigies coming out of Japan. Just wait.”

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With ESPN Cutting Costs, UFC Faces Challenge in Meeting Bold TV Rights Fee Goals

The last week of April 2017 marked a loud yet symbolic shift in the future of sports on television. ESPN, the longtime self-proclaimed “Worldwide Leader in Sports,” released some of its best-known and credible journalistic talent in a purge designed to show Wall Street that it was in serious cost-cutting mode, a response to the continuing loss of millions of cable subscribers who have chosen to cut the cord.

According to Recode, the behemoth has lost 10 million subscribers in just the last five years, an exodus that has led to substantial revenue losses for the network and parent company Disney.

Similarly, Fox Sports 1 is down five million subscribers in less than four years of being launched, according to Sports Business Daily.

It is in this current climate that the UFC will soon bring its television rights fees to market with the hopes of quadrupling its current $115 million annual average, Sports Business Daily recently reported. The UFC’s exclusive window with current TV partner Fox will open later this year.

In at least one way, the UFC is better prepared than ever to take its rights to market. The ownership team at WME-IMG is invested in the outcome, bringing extensive knowledge of the entertainment industry as well as negotiating experience into the fray.

But the current business winds are unsettled.

“It’s hard to predict, but I don’t think you’ll see ESPN continue to overpay for rights,” Daniel Roberts, a writer for Yahoo Finance who covers the intersection of sports and business, told Bleacher Report. “ESPN is spending $8 billion this year just on rights fees. That’s just eye-popping. It’s not tenable for much longer. It’s gotten to the point that every time there’s a Disney earnings report and you scroll down to ‘Cable Networks,’ it says ‘Profit was down at ESPN due to rising programming costs and falling subscriptions. It’s pretty basic business math here—spending up and revenue down—so when you put that on the UFC deal, I don’t see how they can get four times what they did last time, at least not from ESPN.”

But even that comes with a caveat: As bad as the UFC’s timing is in regards to entering a down business market, its timing is fantastic when it comes to little competition in available sports TV rights. In fact, the NBA, NFL, NHL and Major League Baseball television rights are all locked up until 2020 at the earliest, with the college football playoffs and the NCAA March Madness basketball tournament under contract until 2025 and 2032, respectively.

With the sports TV landscape close to barren, the UFC has the ability to position itself accordingly and perhaps drive up its fee.

After all, even while cost-cutting, networks still operate with the understanding that content is king, and any available piece of it can fire up a bidding war.

“It is impossible to ignore the exorbitant fees that ESPN pays for the rights to broadcast a wide spectrum of sporting events, but it is part and parcel of being the ‘Worldwide Leader,’ I suppose,” Darren Heitner, an attorney and founder of Heitner Legal, P.L.L.C., a law firm that specializes in sports law, told Bleacher Report. “ESPN is in this precarious position in which it feels obligated to win bidding wars for important TV rights or else it will shed some of its excellence in comparison to much weaker networks. The key question is: If ESPN reduces its role in bidding, will the fees be reduced in accordance with ESPN’s action?”

The thing is, nobody knows what exactly overpaying will look like in a constantly changing landscape.

And part of the UFC’s battle in reaching its own projections will stem from self-inflicted wounds. Namely, UFC ratings have taken a dip in the early part of 2017 after a blockbuster 2016.

The promotion’s franchise reality show, The Ultimate Fighter, drew just 288,000 viewers to the Season 25 opener, according to ShowBuzz Daily, marking an all-time low. A recent event that featured UFC flyweight champ Demetrious Johnson’s record-tying 10th title defense had the second-worst ratings of any UFC on Fox show ever, according to MMA Fighting. Even the UFC’s pay-per-view numbers are way down, with the first three events of the year drawing around 800,000 combined buys, according to various industry estimates. (By comparison, the first three pay-per-views of 2016 drew about 2 million combined buys, according to Dave Meltzer (h/t MMAPayout).

Those falling metrics are largely the result of a lack of star power in 2017 shows, with draws such as Conor McGregor, Jon Jones and Nick and Nate Diaz yet to see action, and Ronda Rousey likely retired.

Still, there remains evidence that the UFC’s power goes past its raw numbers. After all, there’s a reason the promotion sold for over $4 billion less than a year ago. While audience numbers have dipped since then, the UFC still has the power to draw the coveted 18-49 demographic that advertisers covet. And a triumphant McGregor return—or the return of longtime champ Georges St-Pierre—can quickly change the narrative.

“I certainly can’t predict how much ESPN cares about the UFC but I think they’d be smart to strengthen their coverage of up-and-coming sports,” Roberts said. “They cut back on college sports. They basically closed down their whole ESPNU production headquarters in Charlotte. But I’d be surprised if they cut back on sports that are getting more and more popular, especially because MMA brings an audience that doesn’t necessarily follow other sports. It’s a very strong, devoted audience of fans that have a slightly different profile.”

The UFC can show its connection to these audiences as well as its ability to harness developing mediums as illustrated by its social media prowess (over 38 million followers on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube and Instagram) and adoption of its over-the-top digital service, UFC Fight Pass.

The UFC’s ability to meet its own $450 million per year expectations will ultimately hinge on how the networks value the organization in the context of the prevailing market conditions. Is it the last of the valuable sports rights for the foreseeable future or another bloated contract destined to weigh down its network? The answer depends mostly on the viewpoint of management.

Put on the spot for predictions, both sports business experts believe that the UFC will come close to that target if not reach it.

“I don’t think rights fees are in trouble, per se, but I think that they may plateau in the near future,” Heitner said. “UFC rights should still be exploited for a very large sum of money, and the multiple of 4x is possible. It is more difficult to value those rights as the sport is continuously attracting a wider, larger audience over time.”

“I bet they’ll get close,” Roberts added. “Fox is really trying to ramp up by spending whereas ESPN has overspent. Four-hundred-fifty [million] seems like a stretch. The questions will be: a) Is ESPN going to overpay for one more thing? I don’t think so. And b) Does Fox feel that having UFC has been a key reason it’s grown so much? So if I’m guessing for fun, I’d say about $350 million max. They’ll get close to the number they want, but I don’t see how they’ll get four times what they got last time.”

Growth has halted. Budgets are shrinking. Approaches are adapting to new economic and technological realities. That means in this go-round, the old rules of sports rights negotiation no longer apply. The UFC selling events to multiple networks is possible; so is the possibility that it sells events to a network and a streaming partner.

As the UFC’s negotiating window opens, there is a fortune to be made, but the promotion has an uphill battle to ensure that the difference between what it wants and what it will receive is not a fortune of its own.

Read more MMA news on BleacherReport.com

The Question: Is It Time for UFC to Step in for Diego Sanchez’s Own Good?

Since he made his first appearance on The Ultimate Fighter more than 12 years ago, Diego Sanchez has been one of the most beloved competitors in the organization.
Combining a quirky personality with a ferociously competitive style, Sanchez was in many…

Since he made his first appearance on The Ultimate Fighter more than 12 years ago, Diego Sanchez has been one of the most beloved competitors in the organization.

Combining a quirky personality with a ferociously competitive style, Sanchez was in many ways the embodiment of what fans expected from mixed martial artists.

And for a time, he was among the sport’s best. He started his career with 17 straight wins and eventually challenged for the UFC lightweight title, losing to B.J. Penn in a bloody battle.

It was as close as he ever got to claiming UFC gold. Still, several Sanchez moments live on in UFC lore; his crushing defeat of Kenny Florian to become the first TUF winner, his gunfight with Gilbert Melendez and the “Yes” cartwheel.

Recent times have been leaner, however. Since the start of 2012, Sanchez has gone just 4-6.

Just as troubling: his legendary chin seems to be compromised. He’s been knocked out in two of his last three fights as the career strikes against him pile up. According to MMAJunkie’s Mike Bohn, going into his fight with Al Iaquinta on Saturday, Sanchez had absorbed 1,117 head strikes in his UFC career, third all-time behind Penn and Tito Ortiz.

That’s not a stat you want to be a leader in, and the resulting damage he’s incurred along with his recent results suggest it’s time to consider an ending to a storied career.

For his part, Sanchez doesn’t appear to be ready. Just a couple days after the Iaquinta fight, he posted on Instagram all but confirming a return.

Is it time for the UFC to step in? Joining me to discuss is Bleacher Report MMA lead writer Chad Dundas.

Mike Chiappetta: Chad, this is one of those conversations that no one wants to have, that is easy to avoid until it’s far too late. It might already be too late, I fear. Yes, MMA is a sport in which the risks of damage exist from the beginning, but as we have all seen, the ability to absorb a strike diminishes over the years.

Not only has Sanchez been hit an extraordinary number of times during his career as Mike Bohn points out, but those strikes have come from some crushers. Penn, Jake Ellenberger, Melendez, Takanori Gomi and now Iaquinta.

There has to be a point of diminishing returns, where the potential glory and riches are no longer worth the risks. Sanchez has probably reached it.

To be sure, this kind of outsider perspective says more about the person offering it than the subject. To me, it has become uncomfortable to watch Sanchez, and it’s a function of his style as much as the results.

According to FightMetric, Sanchez has only landed 36 percent of his career strikes. By contrast, his opponents have landed 43 percent. During the course of one fight, a seven percent swing is not huge; over the course of a career, it’s enormous.

To put that lack of accuracy into context, he has only outlanded an opponent in significant strikes in one of his last 11 fights. That’s not a simple trend, it’s an expectation at this point.

And in this day and age of improving skill sets, how is that a winning future formula?

That’s not to say Sanchez can’t win fights. He still fights with an intensity that can overwhelm someone who isn’t up to the task. He still has his Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt to draw upon on the ground. He still has that Lionheart.

And in the end, that’s part of the problem with telling Sanchez it might be time. For someone who has basically embodied competitive spirit throughout his career, asking him to abandon that must be something like asking him to surrender a limb.

In the past, the UFC has broached these kinds of difficult conversations, much to their credit. But this is a different era, and a different management team, and their approach is yet to be seen.

Chad, how do you think they handle it, and how do you think they should handle it?

Chad Dundas: It certainly wouldn’t be unprecedented for UFC brass to step in and tell Sanchez he’s already given enough of his life to this sport. Remember, company president Dana White essentially shuttled Chuck Liddell into retirement in 2010, after the once-ferocious former light heavyweight champion had gone 1-5 and suffered four knockout losses over the course of roughly three years.

White and Liddell share a special bond, obviously. The two have always been close friends and “The Iceman” was one of White’s managerial clients in the days before he became UFC boss. I’d like to think the UFC and Sanchez share a similar relationship, considering his own 26 fights in the Octagon since 2005.

But we’re living in a new era now, Mike. The enticements the UFC used to use to talk longtime fan favorites into walking away before things got truly ugly just don’t exist anymore.

Since WME-IMG took over the UFC last July, the company has been in very public fat-trimming mode. The cushy front-office jobs the fight company used to use to entice people like Liddell and former welterweight champ Matt Hughes into hanging up the gloves were among the first on the chopping block when the new owners started hunting for savings.

In addition to that, we’re dealing with an altogether different marketplace today. The success of Bellator MMA’s senior circuit and the emergence of more circus-minded promotions like Rizin Fight Federation give aging fighters expanded options these days, for better and worse.

So, even if the UFC did step in and declare that it won’t give Sanchez the opportunity to suffer further physical trauma, you can bet there would be somebody willing to pay him to keep fighting.

Case in point: Both Liddell and Hughes are currently hinting at comebacks in organizations outside the UFC.

Perhaps this seems like an obvious point, but now more than ever the impetus for retirement has to come from the fighters themselves, not any external forces.

To date, Sanchez has given zero indication he’s feeling that pull. That hardly makes him unique in MMA history, but to me it does raise some vexing questions.

Mike, do you think there should be better plans in place to make retirement seem like a more viable option for older fighters? Pension plans? Lifelong health insurance? Organizations to aid in the transition?

Is there anything we can do so these veterans don’t want to fight too long?

Mike: The very thing that wires these men and women to want to fight in the first place is the biggest problem here, even more so than money.

As we know, most of them make very little during their careers, particularly when you factor in risk versus reward. Instead, fighting is a kind of personal quest in finding their best selves. Some people climb mountains, others run marathons or jump out of airplanes. To the vast majority of us, those seem like risky and painful ways to pass time. To others, it is as natural as a heartbeat.

Sanchez is an outlier, even to that group. He is probably the most competitive, most ferocious fighter the UFC has ever seen, and so I understand his perspective when he views his recent struggles in that prism rather than that of the average Joe watching at home, working a 9-5 to pay the bills. He has as much trouble grasping our worldview as we do grasping his. We’re almost two different kinds of humans.

At some point, Sanchez will be able to look at himself more objectively, but while he’s in the moment, and what he feels is still the midst of his career, that’s somewhat impossible.

It’s hard to blame him. Imagine if you had something you love to do more than anything in the world, something you’re good enough at to make money and earn a spotlight while doing it, and the world tells you that at 35 years old, you can never do it again. Would your first instinct be to agree with them? To entertain that possibility?

Few would, and that’s why having some kind of financial parachute isn’t the solution. Don’t get me wrong: it would be wonderful and just if the UFC offered pensions to veteran fighters like Sanchez who gave so much of themselves to the promotion, but that’s not a solution to the problem of getting fighters out of the sport before it’s too late.

Even in sports like baseball and basketball, where athletes bank millions and have generous pensions, they have trouble walking away when the sport tells them their time is up. Most are eventually forced out the hard way after their sport informs them they simply have no further value.

The difference, of course, is that in MMA, the stakes are much higher. We have these conversations because we appreciate the contributions that fighters like Sanchez make, and fear that he might give too much, more than he can ever get back.

Chad, who is ultimately responsible for offering the fighter the candid feedback he needs to make such a decision: is it his coaches, his family, or the promotion? And how do fans play into this? In the day and age of social media, fans have a voice. Just the way they offer praise in times of success, do they owe fighters more honest assessments in times like these?

Chad: Probably all of the above—and I hope in the case of somebody like Diego Sanchez, he can understand those assessments come from a place of love.

Most everyone I know in this industry likes Sanchez, both as an athlete and on a personal level, and any handwringing over his future as a professional fighter comes because nobody wants to see bad things happen to him.

I’ve only interviewed the guy a few times, but once was for a magazine career retrospective on him, so it was pretty extensive. For that story, I also interviewed Sanchez’s wife, Bernadette, and a handful of his coaches. Here’s the thing: They’re all lovely, perfectly normal people. Sanchez himself is personable, insightful and honest to a fault. I came away from our interactions feeling like he was one of the sport’s true good guys.

One of the things he’s got going for him is that he’s surrounded by a terrific support system. Bernadette Sanchez has known Diego since high school. The coaches at his longtime training home of the Jackson-Winkeljohn fight team are among the most cerebral and respected professionals in the sport.

Despite the fact Sanchez and his trainers have been through at least one high-profile falling out during his career, I can’t really think of a better group of people to have watching out for you. Hopefully all those people can have some frank conversations with the guy in the coming weeks, when the sting of this loss to Iaquinta isn’t quite so fresh.

But, ultimately, you’re right, Mike. These decisions always come down to the individual fighters. They are difficult, maybe even heart-rending for people who’ve never really known any other life.

Diego Sanchez has been a UFC fighter since he was 23 years old and made his professional debut at age 20.

He’s 35 now and the last active contestant from the landmark inaugural season of The Ultimate Fighter.

From the outside looking in, it’s easy to see his accomplishments and say he’s got nothing left to prove in this sport. But I also understand that it may be impossible for him to see it that way.

I also understand that money, fame, fear and familiarity always complicate these things.

No matter how you or I may feel about watching Sanchez continue to ply his trade, he’s welcome to do it as long as he has the desire and can find someone wiling to pay him to do it. Something tells me that’s going to go on for a bit.

There’s nothing the rest of us can do about it but continue to hope for the best.

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The Question: Is Demetrious Johnson the Best UFC Champ Ever?

In a UFC championship reign that is soon to kiss the five-year mark, Demetrious Johnson has never looked so mighty as he did at last Saturday night’s UFC on FOX main event. Sure, he has beaten opponents in less time than he needed to stop Wilson …

It was, in a word, brilliant.

In almost 15 minutes of action, Reis was only able to land a total of 18 strikes out of 170 attempts against Johnson, according to FightMetric.

That kind of defensive shutdown is staggering. MMA is often fought in close quarters, in flurries and barrages, and with small gloves. As a result, offense is not so difficult to come by. But Johnson effectively rendered Reis impotent with his speed, movement and transitions, which had him in and out of striking range to do his thing without ever taking much of any return fire.

It’s not like he was running away from Reis, either. Johnson scored 135 strikes of his own, landing at a 62.5 percent clip. He was both moves and levels ahead.

He also remains rungs ahead of the division; his successful defense was his 10th straight, tying the great Anderson Silva.

Still only 30 years old and likely in the midst of his athletic prime, Johnson is threatening to rewrite the UFC record books.

There’s no questioning his flyweight dominance, but what about his historical place among the legendary champions like Silva and Georges St-Pierre?

In the immediate aftermath of his historic win, the usually modest Mouse offered a rare moment of bravado.

“GSP and Anderson Silva were great champions, but I’m the best champion to ever step foot in the Octagon,” Johnson said on the Fox broadcast moments after his win.

That’s worth dissecting with MMA Lead Writer Chad Dundas.

Mike Chiappetta: Chad, first off I’m just really happy for Johnson to have that kind of night. Not that he won, but that it was an evening that truly felt as though the fight world was appreciating and saluting him.

I know the ratings numbers were a disappointment—just 1.74 million, according to MMA Fighting—but the Kansas City crowd was fantastic in giving him a star’s reception and respect, and it seemed like the post-fight reaction was equally positive.

For too long, he’s ruled before an apathetic base. Maybe that starts to change now. And maybe him declaring his greatness helps, too. Even if you disagree with him, it’s a grand statement worth taking notice of.

And here’s the part where I have to say that unfortunately, I do disagree with him. Johnson is not the greatest ever. At least not yet. He may get there soon enough though. But I don’t think we can judge this kind of thing on wins alone. We have to look at the quality of who fought who.

Johnson’s greatest opponents during his streak are Joseph Benavidez, John Dodson and Henry Cejudo. Three excellent fighters, yes, but none of them will be looked at as Hall-of-Fame level. Part of this is due to the short history of the flyweight division, which is something out of Johnson’s control, but still must be factored in.

Still, I can’t help contrasting his path with that taken by someone like Jon Jones.

Jones defeated Mauricio “Shogun” Rua, Quinton “Rampage” Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Rashad Evans and Vitor Belfort. Five former UFC champions, all in a row. He defeated Alexander Gustafsson and Daniel Cormier, too. If you’re comparing resumes, it’s not close.

I think you could make an argument that Johnson’s list of opponents is on par with Silva’s or St-Pierre’s, but he simply didn’t face the opponent level that Jones did.

Chad, where does Johnson fit into history here?

Chad Dundas: He’s certainly the best pound-for-pound fighter on the planet right now and considering the staggering turnover among UFC champions during the last couple of years, Johnson’s longevity as the only 125-pound titlist the Octagon has ever known is verging on legendary.

But historical significance can be a tricky subject in sport that’s only existed in America for a shade more than 20 years.

On its face, I agree with you, Mike, that Mighty Mouse hasn’t yet passed St-Pierre or Jones on the list of all-time greats–at least not yet. I also agree that its not really his fault that the flyweight division hasn’t been around long enough to endow his list of opponents with the same mystique as Jones’ or to grant Johnson the gravitas of a GSP.

It’s interesting to ponder where DJ might end up, though, considering the mind-bending fact he could conceivably fight another six or seven years before his physical skills erode. If the man’s 10 consecutive title defenses and wins over five of the UFC’s current Top 10 flyweights isn’t good enough to boost him to GOAT status, what will do the trick?

History is obviously important to him. Considering his glaring lack of success at the box office, it’s basically the only metic we have to chart his stunning success. So, since Johnson clearly intends to go down as the best-ever, I wonder what his best course of action may be.

Does Johnson continue to chip away at dominating the flyweight division on and on into eternity? Does he think about going back up to bantamweight–where he put up a 14-2 record between 2007-2011, losing only to Brad Pickett and Dominick Cruz? Does he consider trying to have current 135-pound champion Cody Garbrandt come down to challenge him?

It seems like a quandary.

Mike, I know you already opined a bit on this subject on fight night, but what’s the brightest future for Johnson? What can he and UFC matchmakers do to plot the way forward?

Mike: It truly depends on Johnson’s goals, I suppose. As you mentioned, I wrote on fight night that the Garbrandt fight is the right call. And I meant that in the sense of, if it’s what Johnson wants, they should give it to him. He deserves a chance for a big fight and a seven-figure payday, and as we’ve learned so far, it doesn’t exist for him in the flyweight division as it currently stands.

At least if the UFC puts together Garbrandt-Johnson at flyweight, as Garbrandt said he’s willing to do, there are multiple narratives to sell.

There’s Johnson going for the record 11th title defense. There’s the rare champion vs. champion matchup. There’s one of the greatest champions ever competing against one of the youngest ever.

And yes, this is all incumbent on Garbrandt beating Dillashaw in July, which is no sure thing.

But it’s something. Something with some meat on the bone that both hardcores and casuals may bite into.

Aside from that, there is little interesting on the horizon for Johnson. Aside from that, he’ll have to keep on doing what he’s been doing, which is winning impressively, but with little fanfare. Maybe that’s enough, but I have to believe he wants better.

But getting back to the original question at hand, are we examining this wrong? Are we too focused on strength of schedule and not enough on straight skill? If you stacked up Johnson, Jones, St-Pierre and Silva, which do you find to be the most complete mixed martial artist?

There is an argument to be made for Johnson, who so far has submitted a decorated Brazilian jiu-jitsu black belt (Reis), outworked an Olympic wrestling gold medalist (Henry Cejudo) and out-hustled a dude who was later busted for EPO (Ali Bagautinov).

The thoroughness of his game is a marvel. He has speed, stamina, technique, defense, fight IQ, the effortless ability to switch stances and surprising pop. If there is anything to exploit—anything at all—it is probably the size of a pinhole, and good luck finding it while in the midst of his unrelenting attack.

Measuring Johnson that way, I would place him above Silva and St-Pierre and right in line with Jones. And within a fight or two—as he shows more facets of his still-evolving game—he may well pass Jones, too.

Is this a fairer way to judge him, and if so, at this point of their careers—Jones, at 29, is one year younger—who has the higher ceiling?

Chad: While we’re talking in superlative terms, I’ll just go ahead and lay it out there: Johnson is perhaps the most complete fighter in the history of the sport.

The way he effortlessly nullified Reis’ offense and systematically took the challenger apart was one of the most impressive thing I’ve ever seen in a UFC title fight. Even to those of us well-versed in what Mighty Mouse brings to the table, it was a revelation.

You mentioned the lopsided striking statistics at the top. To that, I would add that by the time Johnson took the fight to the mat in the third round and locked on an arm bar—thereby handing Reis the first submission loss of his near 10-year, near 30-fight career—it appeared Johnson did it just to see if he could.

As if, he’d had so much success on the feet, he figured he’d get some work in on the ground, too.

Just when we thought we knew what Johnson was capable of, he raised the bar. That’s a credit both to him and his team at AMC Martial Arts in Kirkland, Washington, which always seems to provide the exact right support and game-planning to supplement Johnson’s incredible skills.

There’s only one thing stopping me from declaring that if he keeps going at his current clip, DJ will one day unquestionably establish himself as the greatest UFC champion of all time: All the people involved in this conversation are still fighting.

And thus, we return to the tricky proposition of any historical MMA discussion: The data is constantly changing.

What if Jones get his personal life together and owns the light heavyweight division for another five years before moving up and also winning the heavyweight title?

What if St-Pierre returns from his lengthy hiatus, beats Michael Bisping and captures a UFC title at middleweight?

What if Johnson lives out the rest of his days undefeated, so thoroughly cleaning out the flyweight class that matchmakers have to start going door-to-door looking for 125-pound men for him to fight?

All of those things are possible and any one of them could completely change the parameters of this discussion.

For now, I’ll just say its a three-horse race.

But after Saturday night, Johnson is neck-and-neck with the best to ever wear the gold.

And that’s no small feat.

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For Demetrious Johnson, Champ vs. Champ Fight with Garbrandt Is the Only Call

For a long time, Demetrious Johnson has been the UFC’s most anonymous champion. Every few months, it dusts him off, winds him up and lets him do his thing—which is something close to perfection—and everyone claps politely and then proc…

At least for one night, we may have hope that is about to change. In Kansas City, Missouri, Johnson was greeted like a star, performed like a star and walked off basking in the brightest spotlight his amazing reign has yet seen.

Perhaps this is all it took: a near flawless, jaw-dropping kind of mastery that left him alongside one of the most legendary names in the sport and threatening to rise above him. Johnson’s third-round submission win over Wilson Reis on Saturday marked his 10th straight UFC flyweight title defense, tying Anderson Silva for the most successful defenses in UFC history.

“[Georges St-Pierre] and Anderson Silva were great champions, but I’m the best champion to ever step foot in the Octagon,” Johnson said in the cage moments after his win, per the UFC.

That claim is still debatable, but his case has plenty of evidence that is irrefutable, and more than that, it continues to build.

With one more win, Johnson will have done something that no one in the UFC has ever done. That is an argument with no counter.

The question between now and then will be which man gets the chance to end his streak. Will it be Joseph Benavidez, in a trilogy bout? Will Ray Borg get a shot? Or will the UFC try to set up Johnson’s most high-profile match to date and grant bantamweight champ Cody Garbrandt’s wish to face him?

The last of the three is the one Johnson is most deserving of, but it’s also the matchup with the most hurdles. Johnson would have to be willing to wait until July just to set it up, all the while hoping that Garbrandt defeats T.J. Dillashaw in his first title defense.

And oh, yeah: He’d require a seven-figure payday, something that has thus far eluded him in his career.

“The whole thing with Cody; I’m not worried about it,” Johnson said in the post-fight press conference. “I’ve never turned anybody down. I have nothing but love for the guy. He just won a belt. I’ve defended mine 10 times. If he comes down at 125, we welcome it. He doesn’t dictate terms. Well maybe he does? I don’t know, but at the end of the day, it is what it is. If Cody wants to come to 125, and UFC deems him ready for a title shot, perfect.”

If Johnson comes off as indifferent to the prospective champion vs. champion fight, it’s only because humility and modesty is a staple of his personality, as is his continued drive.

As Johnson’s reign has unfolded, there has been a striking difference in his championship comportment as compared to either Silva or St-Pierre.

Late in their reigns, both of those men openly discussed the crushing strain of wearing a target. Johnson has never shown any signs of being stressed by the many would-be usurpers circling him.

Stardom also has little meaning to him, which is why he has never altered his personality to fit the MMA superstar archetype.

“I’m not searching for that. That’s not why I do this sport,” he said. “I’m not here to be prom king. I want to be the best fighter in the UFC. I think I proved that tonight, dominating a world-class grappler. I don’t think I was touched on the feet.”

Yes, Saturday’s win was even more stunningly perfect than those that have come before it. According to FightMetric, Johnson limited Reis to landing just 10.6 percent of his strikes (18 of 170), a dismal ratio that amounted to quicksand for the challenger. It’s already nearly impossible to beat Johnson, but when you are consistently swinging at air, it is hopeless. By the middle of the second round, Reis must have felt like a dog chasing his tail.

And like all great champions, once Johnson had his opponent deflated, the fight’s ending was a mere formality. Johnson nearly finished Reis in the second, dropping him with a knee to the body and then pouncing on his grounded opponent with a series of hammerfists, but Reis was able to survive the few seconds to the horn.

Reis wasn’t so lucky in the third. Worn down and damaged, he was put down after Johnson pummeled him from the top and pivoted to an arm bar, making the first submission loss in Reis’s 29-fight, decadelong career.

When it was over, Reis just shrugged and hugged Johnson. There was nothing else to do. There was no way to spin things for a positive outlook.

There was just the stark bluntness of both the process and the result.

And that, in the end, is the greatness of Johnson. Yes, his numbers are impressive. Yes, his skill set is sublime. But during this 10-fight stretch, he has mostly left opponents bewildered.

He has been so good for so long that in formulating the game plan against him, opposing coaches have to concede a few basic truths. If they are honest with themselves and their charges, they must admit in their preamble, “I know you’re going to miss strikes…”

With that kind of statement, there is usually something afterward, some plan of action or attack. Some theoretical offense. But none of it ever comes to pass.

Against Demetrious Johnson, it’s a pipe dream, a mirage, a fantasy.

Maybe we can all acknowledge him now. And maybe the UFC can give him his well-deserved payday. Whether it’s Garbrandt or the co-main event spot of a Conor McGregor card, Johnson has earned this like no one in UFC history ever has.

At least on Saturday night, the fight world took notice. That’s a start. Now as he flies back home and disappears from our view for a couple of months, let’s not forget him.

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No Ignoring This: Demetrious Johnson May Soon Break Anderson Silva’s UFC Record

In a sport where danger lurks around every corner, it is difficult to comprehend the dominance of Demetrious Johnson. Perhaps this will put it into some context: It has been years since the fight world looked at a Johnson matchup and could even imagine…

According to BestFightOdds.com, in seven straight pairings, Johnson has been a prohibitive favorite to the tune of -400 odds or better (bet $400 to win $100), a streak that continues to Saturday’s UFC on Fox bout with Wilson Reis, where he remains a staggering -800 favorite.

The great Anderson Silva didn’t command those lopsided spreads from oddsmakers and bettors; neither did Georges St-Pierre.

In the cage, he is as polished and consistent a fighter as our eyes have seen, a true standard-bearer for both his division and the sport.

But the flyweight king and the current No. 1 pound-for-pound fighter in the world, at least according to the voters of UFC.com, cannot seem to make any headway when it comes to his overall popularity and paydays. The last pay-per-view event he headlined, UFC 197 against John Dodson, drew just 115,000 buys, according to Dave Meltzer (h/t MMAPayout), a depressingly low number that stands as the poorest of the last decade for the UFC. While some champions make millions, Johnson’s last publicly disclosed payday (last December) was $350,000.

While his brilliance has long toiled in near-anonymity, Johnson is on the verge of an accomplishment that cannot be ignored. If he meets expectations and defeats Reis (22-6) on Saturday, the smallest champion in UFC history (he’s just 5’3″) will stand aside one of the giants of the game, the legendary Silva, tying the record for the most consecutive UFC title defenses.

St-Pierre didn’t do that. Jon Jones didn’t do that. Jose Aldo didn’t do that.

“Ten is just a stepping stone. The ultimate goal is 11,” Johnson said Monday during a media lunch (h/t MMA Fighting—Warning: contains NSFW language). “It’s like Floyd Mayweather when he got to 49-0. It’s like, why would you stop there? You can easily get to 50-0 and be the only fighter to ever do it. I’m going past it. My goal is to go past 10.”

Johnson (25-2-1) has been so good for so long that the only way he can guarantee increased attention for himself is by either breaking a vaunted record or losing.

Fortunately for him, the former looks like the more likely result in large part due to his 360-degree skill set.

In the cage, he is perhaps the most perfectly complete fighter the sport has seen, with layers of complexity that make his defenses near-impenetrable.

He fights equally well either southpaw or orthodox. He can pepper you from distance or punish you from the clinch. He has excellent wrestling and is a scrambling wizard. In his nine-fight championship defense run, he has four decisions, three submissions and two knockouts. His stamina is endless.

The irony of these many attributes is that the thoroughness of his game is not his danger; it is his armor. Johnson is not unrivaled at any one thing. Within his division, he’s not the biggest puncher or a suffocating jiu-jitsu black belt. But good luck at overwhelming him in any single area. While his opponent tries and fails to find a hole that does not exist, he counters their search, latches on to his foe’s weakness and chips away at it until they are defeated.

Yet still, he remains far too underappreciated.

Part of that is his own doing. Johnson is generally professional and modest, great qualities for an everyday person but not for a sport that demands loud and fascinating figures.

Asked if he’s ever considered a more brash public personality, he said “it’s just not in my bones” to trash talk.

“People are coming out and being more vocal nowadays, but for me, it’s not in my character,” he said.

Matching or exceeding Silva, however, can’t be ignored. The former UFC middleweight champion is MMA royalty, and anytime your name is mentioned in the same breath as his, more attention should follow.

If it doesn’t, Johnson also has the possibility of his highest-profile fight looming, a prospect that could offer him a major payday and more attention than he’s ever received.

One of the UFC’s brightest young stars, newly crowned bantamweight champion Cody Garbrandt, recently said on the Aubrey Marcus podcast that he’s interested in dropping down to flyweight to challenge Johnson and make him “earn” the record he’s chasing.

Yet, if you listen to Johnson, you don’t sense any kind of excitement or anticipation.

“I’ve never, never turned anybody down from coming to my weight class and challenging for the belt,” Johnson said. “I’ve never done it, and I’m not going to start now.”

It’s always pragmatism with him, which makes him seem like an ordinary guy and not one of the best fighters in the world.

At 30 years old, he could stay there for a while, although he is coming off a popliteus tear in his right leg, a reminder, he says, that his body does not respond and recover the way it used to for him. Even greatness has an expiration date.

Everyone eventually loses the belt, and one day, that will happen to Johnson, too. For now, though, that seems far off into the future. For now, he’ll focus not just on keeping his place alongside the best who have ever done it in the Octagon, but surpassing them.

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